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Is God a Trinity? Does one God exist in three Persons?
in Religion
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From Wikipedia:
The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus "threefold")[1] holds that God is one God, but three coeternal consubstantialpersons[2] or hypostases[3]—the Father, the Son(Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three Persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios).[4] In this context, a "nature" is whatone is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[5]Sometimes differing views are referred to as nontrinitarian. Trinitarianism contrasts with positions such as Binitarianism (one deity in two persons, or two deities) and Monarchianism (no plurality of persons within God), of which Modalistic Monarchianism (one deity revealed in three modes) and Unitarianism (one deity in one person) are subsets.
While the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament, the New Testament possesses a "triadic" understanding of God[6] and contains a number of Trinitarian formulas.[7] The doctrine of the Trinity was first formulated among the early Christians and fathers of the Church as early Christians attempted to understand the relationship between Jesus and God in their scriptural documents and prior traditions.[8]
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>>Please correct me if I am wrong but I do not think I quoted anything from the corrupt “New World Translation” rendering of this verse. A majority of my quotations is from the Online Parallel Bible site.
I didn't find something called 'the Online Parallel Bible site', what is the URL? Which specific translation are you referencing which renders a small g?
Of the online parallel Bible sites I found, such as https://www.biblestudytools.com/john/1-1-compare.html or https://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm, I didn't find any translations which render John 1:1 with a little g. Apart from https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/nwt/books/john/1/
Your quote: >>In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and god was the Word.
NWT: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
Your comment; >> "The distinction here is denoting that Jesus is a divine being."
This is also asterisked on the 'jw' site beside the verse footnoted (Or “was divine.”)
>>This is why Goodspeed and Moffatt's Versions are more accurate in this verse than most translations.
Goodspeed - In the beginning the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was divine.
Moffatt - THE Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine.
The greek word for divine is θείας (theias) or θεῖον (theion), not theos.
Word substitution seems like it's the furthest from accuracy. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816)
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John left that definite article off for a reason.
He is intentionally pinpointing Jesus to be separate from the ‘The’ God to a more subtle ‘a’ god or a ‘divine’ being.
But translators of many Bibles came to this scripture already believing certain things about the Word, and made sure their beliefs came through their work.
I feel this is a great disservice to everyone who reads the Bible.
This is what Neopesdom calls “criminal”.
Yes they rob themselves and others of ever getting to know the “True God” in the Bible, by building a “Pseudo God” in the Trinity.
We owe it to John to translate his words the way he wrote them. We owe it to God to translate his words the way they are written.
The RULE is the RULE.
Stick to the Rule cross the board.
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Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you with speculation about what he has seen. Such a man is puffed up without basis by his unspiritual mind, and he loses connection to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and knit together by its joints and ligaments, grows as God causes it to grow. (Col 2:18)
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. (Isa. 43:10)
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>>All the servants in the Hebrew scriptures worshipped Angels in connection to God.
>>They are called gods because they are spirits like God and from heaven like God.
>>Jesus referenced gods and said the scriptures cannot be nullified.
>>John 10:34, 35 - "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;"
The gods that are referenced here are men, not angels. Jesus is exposing their hypocrisy in using the word 'gods' in reference to men or judges without issue. In the Jews mind Jesus is just a man, who is now saying that He is God and they want to stone him because of it. Jesus is saying that because you think I'm just a man that claims to be God, why do you have a problem if in your own law it's written that these men are also called gods. He is not making an equivalency, just pointing out their double standards.
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.…(1 Corinthians 8:4-6)
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>>>If a voice message comes out of your phone and says I am your father, will you give a card to your phone on fathers day?
Excellent Illustration! Nevertheless, this applies to Jesus. He even said his words was not his own, as an agent would say.
John 14:24 - "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."
Jesus is the Agent.
You said it your scripture.
The scripture you qouted:
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.…(1 Corinthians 8:4-6)
Proves Jesus is an Agent, he is not the True God.
The principal is clearly the Father.
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>>Jesus is the Agent.
In the case of Divine Agency, God Himself is the Principle and the Agent. He was manifested in the flesh.
I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth. Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:
He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit,
seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.
(1 Timothy 3:14-16)
I brought up this verse before and you claimed that it was corrupted, the word He was changed to God, according to Newton's dissertation. However in context with the previous verse we can quite clearly see that the suspect word 'He' is referring to God.
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I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth. Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:
He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit,
seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.
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You must be a Jehovah's Witness or a X-Jehovah's Witnesses, because you qoute from the Watchtower a lot.
I said it should be translated as "divine". You said that is word substitution. Nevertheless, the english language changed from the old english. Old english recognized that references to god was not the True God. This was recognized in Koine Greek also. But in modern English reference to God is reserved for the True God. That definition of "Theos" is the same definition of the modern english "divine".
>>>But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.” Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God (John 5:17-18)
Was Jesus breaking the Sabbath? No he wasn't. He explained it was never against the Sabbath to heal on the Sabbath.
Now the question was he making himself equal with God? No he wasn't. As you stated with the term "Agent", Jesus is the Agent.
>>>If a voice message comes out of your phone and says I am your father, will you give a card to your phone on fathers day?
Apparently you would buy your phone a card.
Explain how Jesus is not an Agent of God.
You quote John 14:11
>>>"...The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works." (John 14:11)
almost exactly like the scripture I quote
John 14:24 - "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me."
Both say that Jesus is the Agent.
Jesus says he was 'sent', if he was God then a more appropriate word would be 'came'.
I was 'sent' says 'Agent', this is your stuff!
Please explain how Jesus is not an Agent of God.
Trinitarians know that Jesus never claimed to be God. That is why they are constantly asking 'Where did he claim he is not God?'
I mean based on that reasoning Ezekiel didn't claim he was not God also, maybe he is God.
>>>They did not accept His message and therefore claimed He hath a devil, and was insane.
This was not Jesus message.
Nevertheless, I am open for correction.
Where in his message did he claim to be God?
Where?
Show me the scripture?
Lets hypothetically say Jesus does claim to be God.
The scripture you quoted clarifies that viewpoint.
That the Father is 'the only True God':
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many so-called gods and lords), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.…(1 Corinthians 8:4-6)
This agrees with the old testament:
Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"
Even Jesus agrees with this:
John 17:3 - "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."
If you are truly on that narrow road, then you need to accept truth.
The Father is the only True God.
Jesus is a so-called god, an Agent.
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  Entity Sentiment Detection: Holy Spirit God    concept      
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Trinity in Scripture
Trinity at the Incarnation
Trinity at the Great Commision
Trinity at the Baptism of Jesus
The Three are One God
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Deep Research
>>>And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God. (Luke 1:35)
>>>Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,..."
I don't see a Trinity. These entities are just mentioned together.
>>>You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him (Romans 8:9). The Spirit of God is used interchangeably with the Spirit of Christ.
This is a good one.
Keep reading, verses 10 & 11
"But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you."
They are not used interchangeably, if you have God's spirit you will be raised with a mortal body, if you have Christ spirit you will be raised a spiritual body.
>>>Romans 16:16 uses the phrase "churches of Christ", 2 Thes. 1:4 uses the phrase churches of God.
churches of the saints - 1 Cor. 14:33
churches of the Gentiles - Rom 16:4
Maybe the Saints and the Gentiles are a part of God?
>>>Revelation 1:8 says that the Lord God is the Alpha and the Omega, in Revelation 22:13, Jesus says " I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Remember the Angel actually said those words in Revelation 22:13
>>>In the Old Testament God's name is identified by four consonants YHWH, commonly articulated as Yahweh, Jehovah, or "I AM". In John 8:58, Jesus says He is "I AM".
The words "I AM" was spoken by an Angel - The Angel was an agent - Jesus by saying those words is saying he is an agent..
>>>John 2:19-22 Jesus says He will raise Himself from the dead, 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 say God will raise Him from the Dead. In Romans 8:11 says that the Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead!
Did Jesus literally raise himself from the dead?
Jesus no doubt is speaking from a prophetic sense.
Just like other prophets.
Ezekiel 43:3 - "And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face."
Jeremiah 1:10 - "Today I appoint you to stand up against nations and kingdoms. Some you must uproot and tear down, destroy and overthrow. Others you must build up and plant.”
This also conflicts with a lot of scriptures if Christ raised himself. Romans 8:11; 1 Cor 6:14; 1 Cor 15:15; Acts 3:15; Acts 4:10; Acts 13:30;
The Holy Spirit was the instrument used to raise Christ, but in agreement with multiple scriptures God raised Jesus.
>>>Acts 13:2, Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Here the Holy Spirit is confirmed to be a person who speaks independently for Himself. "And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,.." (Heb. 10:15)
Wisdom is said to have children. (Luke 7:35) Proverbs chapter 8 shows wisdom speaking also.
Who really is speaking? Does the holy spirit speak through Angels, Humans, or by himself? The Bible has different answers - Matthew 10:19, 20; Acts 4:24, 25; Acts 28:25; Hebrews 2:2
The Holy Spirit is the only entity that is listed with qualities. Acts 6:3; Acts 11:24; Acts 13:52; 2 Corinthians 6:6
>>>You have not lied to man but to God.” (Acts 5:3-4) The Holy Spirit is here equated with God.
Any sin against anyone is a sin against God. If I sin against you I sin against God, it doesn't mean I equate you equal to God.
John 8:39-41 - "They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. “But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. “You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
Are the Jews saying Abraham is equal to God? By simular wording you could think so.
>>> to the glory of God the Father..Philippians 2:10-11. It is clearly evident that these two passages together reveal the identity of Jesus as God, worship is reserved for God alone.
If Jesus is God, then why does the scripture mention "to the glory of God the Father". Obviously worship to Jesus in connection to God is appropriate. But because it separates the term God the Father from Jesus without the term God the Son, proves Jesus is not God.
The fact the scriptures intentionally reframe from calling Jesus the True God, yet it reserves this title for the Father only, proves Jesus is not on the same level.
These other scriptures show similarities, deductive reasoning, but no direct statements. If someone works in harmony with God there will be similarities.
This does not make those persons God.
Half quoting scriptures does not help the cause of honestly determining the essence of the True God.
This has be done by Trinitarians for years! The direct statements that Jesus is not God is overlooked.
Hiding the simple truth that Jesus is not God but an agent of God.
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>>>Remember the Angel actually said those words in Revelation 22:13
And on whose behalf did this Angel convey these words? You are suggesting that the angel was speaking of himself? That would make you a willfully blind heretic.
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Rev. 22:16)
  Considerate: 79%  
  Substantial: 55%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 93%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 6.76  
  Sources: 0  
  Entity Sentiment Detection: private interpretations    blind heretic   offspring of David   morning star  
  Relevant (Beta): 34%  
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  Considerate: 84%  
  Substantial: 71%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 91%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 5.42  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 64%  
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  Considerate: 92%  
  Substantial: 49%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 94%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 5.5  
  Sources: 0  
  Entity Sentiment Detection: real clear.If    way of an Angel   Angel   God.When John  
  Relevant (Beta): 53%  
  Learn More About Debra